The Polygraph Place

Thanks for stopping by our bulletin board.
Please take just a moment to register so you can post your own questions
and reply to topics. It is free and takes only a minute to register. Just click on the register link


  Polygraph Place Bulletin Board
  Professional Issues - Private Forum for Examiners ONLY
  Do Not Disturb - or - Iatrogenisis, dishabituation and other four-letter words

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
profile | register | preferences | faq | search

next newest topic | next oldest topic
Author Topic:   Do Not Disturb - or - Iatrogenisis, dishabituation and other four-letter words
rnelson
Member
posted 12-22-2008 10:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for rnelson   Click Here to Email rnelson     Edit/Delete Message
The forum has been a bit sleepy lately.

So...

I propose a PCSOT Poll.

The proposed model policy will probably contain requirements similar to the content taught at recebnt PCSOT trainins at the Utah and MRP conferences.

If the content of those trainings is an accurate reflection of the proposed model policy, we can expect that the model policy will include a requirement like the one on slide 234 of 267 from the UPA conference materials.

quote:
During post-test PCSOT phases of truthful exams, examiners shall inform and discuss with offenders responses to CQs, noting that discernable reactions were displayed and advising that these issues may be targets of additional testing at a future date.

POLL QUESTION:

How many PCSOT examiners (or any other examers) presently inform ALL examinees that they "showed discernable reactions?"

Also,

How many PCSOT examiners are comfortable with a requirement to do so, else risk being regarded as out of compliance with the proposed model-policy (which means you won't get the PCSOT committee's, or the APA's, good-housekeeping-seal-of-approval if you don't tell every examinee that they have a problem with some of the questions)?

???

r

------------------
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room."
--(Stanley Kubrick/Peter Sellers - Dr. Strangelove, 1964)


IP: Logged

Toneill
Member
posted 12-22-2008 10:47 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Toneill   Click Here to Email Toneill     Edit/Delete Message
Hey Ray,

Can't help you out much with the PCSOT Policy requirement as I'm not a PCSOT examiner but, It doesn't seem right for what it is worth from my end. But then again...I have a problem with the disclosures not being "Mandated Reporting" issues as well.

Anyhow the main reason for my reply is the graphic below your post...I loved it...not only for the footnote purpose but..I did that as a kid that age (only once!) then I went to removing door knobs from the doors with the butter knife (Safer!)

Tony

IP: Logged

ckieso
Member
posted 12-22-2008 10:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ckieso   Click Here to Email ckieso     Edit/Delete Message
Informing the examinee that he was SR to the CQ's can provide further information and dislosures that can be useful for the therapist and/or supervising officer. However, it seems contradictory to the way polygraph has been traditionally used, i.e. "A person is not to be interrogated if there are no SR's to the relevant questions."

This poses a dilemma I think for PCSOT. We do ideally want to gain as much information as we can, but at what cost or deviation from the typical use of the polygraph??

[This message has been edited by ckieso (edited 12-22-2008).]

IP: Logged

skipwebb
Member
posted 12-22-2008 01:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for skipwebb   Click Here to Email skipwebb     Edit/Delete Message
I think its absolutely imperative that an examiner do an NDI/NSR "release" in which he informs the examinee that there were some reactions to the comparison questions that were observed by the examiner. The examinee knows that he had some problems with those questions and if he walks out without someone calling him on them then he thinks he "beat" the test. That makes for a problem with furute testing.

With that said, I don't believe that the examinee should be interrogated concerning the comparison questions but he should at least be told that reactions were observed.

I am not aware of any accredited school that doesn't teach an "NDI release"

I wouldn't think that PSCOT would be different than normal criminal specific tests in this regard.

IP: Logged

ckieso
Member
posted 12-22-2008 03:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ckieso   Click Here to Email ckieso     Edit/Delete Message
I agree, the examinee should be informed that there were concerns regarding the CQ's. I should not have used the word "interrogated." The examinee should be interviewed to gain information and to keep the CQ's salient for future testing.

[This message has been edited by ckieso (edited 12-22-2008).]

IP: Logged

Taylor
Member
posted 12-22-2008 05:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Taylor   Click Here to Email Taylor     Edit/Delete Message
On PCSOT after a NDI test I will review and sometimes question the CQ's and tell them there were some reactions and they need to work on those issues. I have also told them they will probably be on the next test...which they might as a CQ.

However, I don't think we need the word 'all' and I don't think we should tell them they failed because of the CQ's.

IP: Logged

ebvan
Member
posted 12-22-2008 06:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ebvan   Click Here to Email ebvan     Edit/Delete Message
It sure sounds like they want interrogation on CQ's and I'm against that.

I approach an most NDI's with
"OK BillyBob I have taken a look at your charts, I have a preliminary result, but before I tell you what it is, I have some questions.
#1 Which one of todays questions do you think caused the biggest reaction?"
#2 Whatever he says.. Respond with "You're correct. It is pretty obvious that you are concerned about your reaction to that question. Why were you concerned about it?"
(Letting him discuss anything he wishes for as long as he wishes)
For somebody I expect to see again...
#3 "In addition to the question that bothered you today, there were some reactions to some of the other questions and while none of them caused you to fail your test today, we may want to take a very close look at one or two of them the next time you come in. I'm going to make a note in my report that even though you passed your test today, YOU were concerned about that question that bothered you, so your P.O./Therapist can discuss it with you further. "

While I am perfectly content with an examinee discussing anything HE/SHE felt during the test, I think that the slide mentioned above lands a bit too heavy on the SHALL. It seems like a throwback to when they were teaching using treatment issues on parole violation tests and vice versa.

But that is just one man's opinion.

------------------
Ex scientia veritas

IP: Logged

rnelson
Member
posted 12-22-2008 06:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for rnelson   Click Here to Email rnelson     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
However, I don't think we need the word 'all' and I don't think we should tell them they failed because of the CQ's.

Examiner: “There are discernible reactions were displayed, and these issues may be targets of additional testing at a future date...”

Offender: “Does that mean I failed.”

Examiner: “It means that your having problems with some of these questions.”

Offender: “Do you mean I failed.”

Examiner: “You are reacting to some of the questions, and we may need to talk about those at your next polygraph.”

Offender: “I don't care as long as I didn't fail.”


Now, your garden-variety idiot will not be all that hard to convince, but our more dangerous offenders - the smarter, psychopathic types - will be taking careful notes.

--------------------------------------------------------------

For the sake of argument...

The only thing that I have real concern about is the word “shall.” Do we want to bind ourselves into doing this or risk being non-compliant.

Anytime we begin to enact a policy or required procedure, we are wise to consider the potential for iatrogenic effects.

Iatrogenisis is the occurrence of unanticipated negative results or negative side effects.

What we seem to be concerned about is the potential for habituation to the CQs.

Habituation is the loss or diminishing of response potential to a stimulus. What we are trying to achieve is called dishabituation – which refers to the process of regaining a response potential that was previously habituated. Except that the next stimulus has not yet occurred, so what we are really doing is attempting to prophylactically dishabituate the examinee - to dishabituate them before they display a habituated response potential – like taking antibiotics before undergoing oral surgery, to prevent any iatrogenic effects (secondary infections).

What and how much do we really know (from studies) about how participating in a polygraph test causes the subject to habituate to the CQs. We have a lot of anecdotal and impressionistic thoughts, and some possible gaps in our hypothesizing about the broader implications of this proposal

When we tell an examinee there may be some problems with some of the questions we are trying to account for the examinee's overall experience with the polygraph, including the experience of a truthful examinees who knows he was unsure about or lied to the CQs. So, it is desirable that an examinee walks away from the polygraph feeling glad they passed, and feeling anxious about their integrity - like maybe they just barely passed. The trouble is that everyone whose client passes a polygraph doesn't "barely pass," they "pass-with-flying-colors," and all the other dramatic nonsense. (Same when people fail, they don't just "fail," like "regular fail," they "fail-miserably.” People seem to like to add drama to things.)

For a criminal suspect there polygraph experience is limited to a single test, and perhaps another test down the road some time. For a police applicant, experience with the polygraph may include exams for a couple of departments, along with the (misguided) support and encouragement at AP. For sex offenders on probation for periods of 10 years to the remainder of their lifetime (as it should be), there polygraph experience can amount to 10, 20, 30, 40 or 50 or more examinations - coupled with all of the confronting and cheerleading (punching and burping) from their therapists, supervising officers, and treatment group members.

So, imagine an offender who lies, fails, is interrogated and volunteers additional information. He'll certainly be reported as SR/DI and he'll have an opportunity to do a good job discussing the matter in more careful detail at his next individual therapy, group session, or supervision meeting.

Some of the other offenders in the group are most certain inly taking notes about what to do and what not to do. Some will notice that he made admissions after the polygraph.

Now, imagine an offender (naive subject) who passes a maintenance or monitoring polygraph, knowing that he hasn't broken the rules or reoffended (some don't actually want to go to prison), and is then told he's reacting to some of the questions on the test. We want him to leave feeling not-so-sure about himself. At his next therapy session, group meeting or supervision meeting he will certainly be asked how his polygraph went, at which point he'll indicate he is unsure because the examiner told him he was "having a problem" with some of the questions. But if the report comes back NSR he'll be relieved, at which point the group members who are taking notes will notice that he didn't make any admissions, even though he was told he has a problem with some questions - and was reported NSR.

Contrary to popular belief, offenders are not completely stupid.

Consider that group sizes are often in the area of 9 to 12 persons, who take maintenance polygraphs twice a year, plus extra tests to complete sex history exams and resolve any deceptive or inconclusive results. What this means is that offenders can be expected to be discussing someone's polygraph results during more than half of their group sessions.

It will not take many observations or experiences before word gets through the treatment group that examiners always tell everyone they are showing “discernible reactions were displayed, and these issues may be targets of additional testing at a future date.” They will also notice that anyone who makes a posttest admission is reported as SR, and those who make no admissions are not. Admissions to CQs will not be reported as SR, so those will most likely not be discussed in the treatment group, because an NSR result will signal the PO and therapist to go into cheerleader mode because the offender passed-with-flying-colors. What the offender notices is that those who make admissions most certainly fail, and those who pass seem to have made no admissions.

Offenders will also notice and inform each other that any posttest admissions will be reported to the PO and therapist. Any PO worth the weight of his rule-books will most certainly expect follow-through and consequential action in response to anything which the offender has lied about.

The reality-check for us is that we are naïve if we think we are ever going to know “everything” an offender is up to. It's simply not humanely possible to know everything. There is always more. If we keep digging, we'll keep getting more – until someone clams-up. But we still won't know everything. So, attempts to facilitate long-term stable PCSOT programs around the values-based principle of “complete disclosure” will be regarded by realistic thinkers as a values-based (read: non-evidence-based) approach that is unrealistic. For offenders, the only realistic solution to the need to report “everything” without leaving out even one single detail is to over-report – unless they think they can get it 100 percent perfect without over-reporting. The problem is that “over-reporting” is interpreted by bleeding-heart opponents of the polygraph (at ATSA) as “having to make false-admissions in order to pass the polygraph.”)

To the offender, the lesson in all of this is that the examiner will always say there are “discernible reactions were displayed, and these issues may be targets of additional testing at a future date,” and that if you make admissions you'll certainly have problems, but if you don't make admissions you have a better chance.

What we might be doing is inoculating our offenders against future posttest interrogations. We don't know. They might decide to break the rules, or even re-offend, someday They do this knowing that they will have to either lie or admit the behavior at their next polygraph. What they will also know from experience and observation is that the examiner will say there are “discernible reactions.” We will have practiced and trained them to make no admissions.

It's possible that in our effort to prophylactically dishabituate CQs responses to a future polygraph test, we are reducing the effectiveness of our posttest effort when it matters. We are naïve to assume the offenders are not assimilating information from their broader experiences and observations about the systemic processes.

We haven't really studied or considered the problem in it's larger context. I believe this is a bigger potential problem in PCSOT programs than other types of polygraph programs – because of the number of tests they take and the volume of discussion and experience that is shared with others and attached to every examination.

My real point is that anytime we start to make standards of practice or a model policy, we should base them on evidence whenever possible. It is sometimes necessary to make standard policies in the absence of evidence – when there is an imminent safety risk.

We also have to remember that each offender's experience with the polygraph is not limited to a single test. Instead there experience with the polygraph comes from dozens of testing experiences that are all processed and shared with other offenders in group, and with other professionals who sometimes do and sometimes don't understand the polygraph.

How sure are we, as masters of the human psyche, that the offenders' experiences are really what we think or hope they are?

How sure are we that offenders, after their 5th, 10th, or 20th polygraph, and after discussing polygraph groups in group therapy all year, aren't somewhat wise to polygraph schtick, and that we're not inocculating them against their next real interrogation?

So, my questions is: Is this the type of practice we'd like to see embedded in a model policy? Or, is this something that is better left as a training issue. There is a lot that we do that does not belong in a model policy.

In deciding this type of thing. We are wise to consider potential iatrogenic and systemic effects.

.02

r

------------------
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room."
--(Stanley Kubrick/Peter Sellers - Dr. Strangelove, 1964)


IP: Logged

wjallen
Member
posted 12-23-2008 08:05 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for wjallen   Click Here to Email wjallen     Edit/Delete Message
sesquipedalianist

IP: Logged

blalock
Member
posted 12-23-2008 09:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for blalock   Click Here to Email blalock     Edit/Delete Message
This is exactly why I like the use of the directed lie, especially in pre-employment and PCSOT. One of the principle reasons for the development of the directed lie comparison question is that it appears to be effective even in repeated testing scenarios.

Ray, I think you make a good case against requiring an "NDI release." While it may very well be a good practice, it is not necessary to make it a requirement in PCSOT Policy.
------------------
Ben

blalockben@hotmail.com

[This message has been edited by blalock (edited 12-23-2008).]

IP: Logged

rnelson
Member
posted 12-23-2008 11:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for rnelson   Click Here to Email rnelson     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
sesquipedalianist

Easy there. Lets not get sesquipedaliaphobic.

I'm simply asking whether we really want to put it in writing, on the web, that we are going to tell every offender, truthful or not, that "there were discernible reactions to some of the questions...?"

.02

r

------------------
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room."
--(Stanley Kubrick/Peter Sellers - Dr. Strangelove, 1964)


IP: Logged

Taylor
Member
posted 12-23-2008 07:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Taylor   Click Here to Email Taylor     Edit/Delete Message
I agree with Ray. Is anyone from the APA watching this board and if so can they give any input? OR do we need to send this conversation to the committee member:

Post Conviction Sex Offender Testing (PCSOT)
Pam Shaw, vplawenforcement@polygraph.org

IP: Logged

Taylor
Member
posted 12-23-2008 07:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Taylor   Click Here to Email Taylor     Edit/Delete Message
FYI I just sent Pam an email. Ralph if she isn't a member on the examiners web site I will vouch for her. We need her and others here to comment on this info as well as numerous other important issues.

IP: Logged

rnelson
Member
posted 12-24-2008 10:27 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for rnelson   Click Here to Email rnelson     Edit/Delete Message
When we are testing someone for their 15th or 20th polygraph in, say 5 to 8 years (happens all the time), how many of us believe that last examiner's prophyllactically dishabituation effort really contributes to whether or not our CQs work. I don't, and I doubt others believe that is a major factor in the efficacy of their CQs. CQs work because we, as individual examiners, make 'em work - at each examination.

After completing someone's 20th polygraph, I have no illusions that my telling the offender "there are discernible reactions..." will make the next examiner's CQs work. I won't. It is up to that next examiners to make the CQs work.

Now offenders will do what they have to do to stay out of prison, and minimize their consequences and restrictions (and to reduce their supervision oversight). We exploit their narcissistic self-interest in attempt to make 'em behave better. If we expect, and enforce, that they will account for themselves and pass their polygraphs, then they more often will do so. Programs that absolutely require an admission, before consequences and restrictions and relieved, will get them. Offenders will learn to make the kinds of admissions that both satisfy their team members and minimize the consequential impact to themselves. They'll admit to "just remembered" incidental contacts with minors, attempting to portray them as visual contacts only - but unreported. Or maybe they just remembered that a kid bumped into them in the line at the grocery store (they are child-magnets). They's admit to peripheral contact with pornography, in the form of tool advertisements or restroom drawings at their workplaces. Or they'll admit to hugging someone, just a friend, or being overly friendly. Or they'll admit to asking their spouse/girlfriend/boyfriend more than once (which is pressuring, which starts with p and rhymes with C for coercing, which of course = force) for sexual contact when they wern't in the mood. Or they'll play the numbers game for us, and admit to a few more incidents of some behavior to which they already admitted (e.g., pornography use, masturbation, whatever). All of these satisfy the demand for an admission, while minimizing the consequential load for the offender. They know this. So do we.

If we start mandating that we challenge the CQs at the end of every test, POs will be eager to enforce this (it's their nature, we like 'em that way). The offenders, if required to do so, will make some form of admission. But it will be a token admission only - they'll toss us a bone. If there is no enforcement, then they'll simply notice that when they make no admissions they are more likely to get an NSR result and not get their arse kicked by their treatment group and community supervision team. What we might be doing is training them and ourselves to honor token admissions.

Offenders don't do what they are supposed to do simply because they are supposed to do it. They do as little as possible, only because they have to do it.

There is little to be gained from asking questions that don't matter. Keep in mind that offenders devote as much, or more, energy and attention to sizing us up as we devote to sizing them up.

If we simply ask and don't require (non-interrogation approach) an explanation, they'll notice. On the other hand, if we require an explanation, that becomes a form of interrogation - we're not gonna be done until we get an explanation.

Silly word-games belong in cross-word puzzles, not policy.

Calling an INC NO is still INC. There is no difference. If Sex, alcohol, listing to rock-n-roll a prohibited by probation, then sex, alcohol is a mixed-issue (multi-issue) test just as much as sex-drugs-and-rock-n-roll.

Asking someone to explain something during the posttest is just that. Either it matters or it doesn't.

If we press them at the end of every test, SR or NSR, we might just be practicing them and inocculating them against their next real interrogation.

I, for one, think we should consider the wisdom of interrogating when it counts.


.02



------------------
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room."
--(Stanley Kubrick/Peter Sellers - Dr. Strangelove, 1964)


IP: Logged

ckieso
Member
posted 12-24-2008 01:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ckieso   Click Here to Email ckieso     Edit/Delete Message
Well stated Ray and I agree with you.

IP: Logged

Toneill
Member
posted 12-26-2008 06:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Toneill   Click Here to Email Toneill     Edit/Delete Message
Ray...well said in the "Round Up" for the topic....We at least in Wisconsin have to be careful when in the post polygraph interview and are required to have a clear separation of "time and content" (Johnson vs Wisconsin) a break from the polygraph and no mention of the poly) when we make the transition to what may be a voluntary statement (evidence).

I also for one figured, hey if it doesn't matter, why talk about it and even more so, you may see the guy again for some other matter in the future.


Tony

Anyway seems like we went from sticking the butter knife in the electrical outlet to taking off door knobs instead...

IP: Logged

stat
Member
posted 12-28-2008 11:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for stat   Click Here to Email stat     Edit/Delete Message
Riveting topic----probably one of my favorite subject of discussion (and reading)relating to pcsot policy. Interrogation in and of itself being my all time fav though. I like Ray's long game approach----and he has a steely grasp on the broader use of poly----which is often missing from wonkish, small and short thinkers within the industry. I'd just like to add a few beans, and in my typical fashion---some of the things are going to be negativistic and demoralizing to some.

I used to interrogate (softer version) of controls by stating to examinees that they have "passed, but with a "D" (or C or d-) depending on many factors of team risk or likelihood of manipulation history post-release. This would be my laymen explanation to offenders to open up dialogue as to how to get that A or B on their next "test." Shamefully, I thought this homespun method was quite clever. Referring to Ray's above commentary, it made for more confusion (I'm guessing) when offenders met with other examiners who didn't give out such explanations after nsr tests. Uniformity with empirical, although ever evolving standards is a must----the field must be able to change with the needs faster than the current plate-techtonic pace.

Having said that, the field must struggle to emerge from bullshit-making. We author phrases and conduct bait and switches to keep offenders eclipsed into half-knowledge because we have little choice until polygraph can take steps toward above-ground mechanisms. As others have stated, the directed lie is a worthy attempt---but my opinion is that I'd hate to follow an examiner's dlct with a PLCT---for the reasons of my case against subteranean mechanism. In the past, i have suggested ways to take the test closer to true psychophysiology with less of the "Princess Bride" Scicilian game of wits---with all the "you must think that I am thinking what you are thinking that I am thinking" mechanisms that Ray so correctly calls "crazy making."

Ray is right to repair and revise standards, but hopefully it is to keep the ship afloat while the others build a whole new ship.

IP: Logged

All times are PT (US)

next newest topic | next oldest topic

Administrative Options: Close Topic | Archive/Move | Delete Topic
Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Hop to:

Contact Us | The Polygraph Place

Copyright 1999-2008. WordNet Solutions Inc. All Rights Reserved

Powered by: Ultimate Bulletin Board, Version 5.39c
© Infopop Corporation (formerly Madrona Park, Inc.), 1998 - 1999.